World Wide Web in the Curricula visits

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Copyright and the World Wide Web -- a Chat, Tuesday, November 26, 2002

It Begins ...

sysop.....Hi Angela ...
sysop.....Are you at home?
angela tyler-wiltz..yes, i'm at home
David Joyner..I tried my netscape to log in as usual a and it said I needed
          the plug in
sysop.....So David ... what does that mean?  Are you working
          correctly?
sysop.....So, Angela ... how do you like being at home ... in class?
David Joyner..this seems slow to me I have to refresh
David Joyner..at home.
angela tyler-wiltz..it is great, but i have to noise makers in the
          background that won't make things easy
angela tyler-wiltz..two noise makers
sysop.....David ... Yes you may need to "refresh" often so that you will see
          current content.
sysop.....Hi Jamie !!
Jamie Cologne..Hi George
David Joyner..I have two rottweilers laying hear
sysop.....Rottwilers ... that would be fun in class.  What are their
          names?
sysop.....Jamie, are you at home?
David Joyner..Rocky is 8, and greta is 3
Jamie Cologne..Yes I'm at home! Cooking
sysop.....Hi Anthony!
anthony gabriel..hi, i'm back
David Joyner..new color
sysop.....Everyone's all colorized I see !!
anthony gabriel..david check your email, i sent you a message about exam 4(
          i changed my color)
David Joyner..trying to settle on one.
sysop.....Five of us here ALREADY ... its better than being in
          class?
sysop.....Jamie's cooking ... what's for dinner?
sysop.....I'm going to have a shrimp po-boy ... than Chicken Gumbo.
David Joyner..when do we start 5:30?
angela tyler-wiltz..sounds good, can i come over
Jamie Cologne..baked chicken/first time I ever tried it. I hope's
          good
anthony gabriel..I make the best sweet potato pie in the city, I may bring
          some to next class
sysop.....Its sweet potato season too!
sysop.....Just bought some for my family this week.
sysop.....Hi Charlie!
David Joyner..highlight name and select private message in the menu tosend
          any one a private message
Charlie Ackerman..hi george, let me change my color
sysop.....Are you at home Charlie?
David Joyner..Charlie, say that in any other forum and it would be
          strange
Charlie Ackerman..I'm in Pennsylavannia.
Charlie Ackerman..very good David
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Hi everyone.
sysop.....It that true, Charlie! For real?
sysop.....Hi Jennifer
Charlie Ackerman..Yes, and we're supposed to get snow tonight
Charlie Ackerman..Had to rush back from NYC to get here to be with you
          guys
David Joyner..catch a snowflake for me
sysop.....What town in Pennsylavannia?
anthony gabriel..I guess you like green as well charlie
Charlie Ackerman..Nuremberg, it's in the Northeast
David Joyner..its not easy being green
jennifer casillas..Hi, George, Angela, Anthony, Charlie, David, Garry-nice
          to see your name, Jackie, and Jamie
Charlie Ackerman..Yea, anthony, that should be our group color.
Charlie Ackerman..Hi Jennifer
anthony gabriel..I AGREE
angela tyler-wiltz..hi jennifer
sysop.....Nuremberg .. forcast for tonight ... Some light sprinkles and
          flurries will be across the region through late afternoon. No snow
          accumulation is expected until later this evening...when a
          steadier snow will develop.
David Joyner..Brother Martin performed the play "nuremberg"
sysop.....Hi Meghan
Meghan Kelly..Is that like Judgement at Nruembery?
Charlie Ackerman..HI, Meghan and angela
Meghan Kelly..Hi
sysop.....Hi Shelley
David Joyner..yes
Charlie Ackerman..Hey, shelley
Meghan Kelly..Who directs at Brother Martin
Charlie Ackerman..Not the same Nuremberg but related, very German area
          here
David Joyner..I dont think it was that version though
sysop.....nine of us ... only 5 left to go
Charlie Ackerman..Thanks for the forecast, George
Moira Michelle Rheams..Hi you know that I amstill trying to pick a
          color.
Charlie Ackerman..That sounds like you shelley
Moira Michelle Rheams..I dont have a  preview window
jsparck...hi everybody
Moira Michelle Rheams..Hi
jennifer casillas..I picked a color, but I don't know if it is showing up. 
          It looks black to me.   Hi Jennifer.
sysop.....Hi Jennifer Sparck
jsparck...hi george
Meghan Kelly..It shows as black.
Shelley Rheams..Mine too, I just thought it was too balanced.
Charlie Ackerman..Jennifer it looks black to me
David Joyner..it is black or grey at least
Jamie Cologne..jennifer that's my color but i will share
jsparck...jennifer - on my computer I see black as well..
jsparck...oops
Meghan Kelly..Jamie,  yours is purpler
sysop.....Hi Jackie ... I think I miss you when you join us.
jennifer casillas..I see.  I needed to move the color over very for to see a
          change.
jsparck...how is this color?
sysop.....Hi Liz
sysop.....Hi Jane
Shelley Rheams..Thats more like it - right name and the right color!
efarber...hello. i'm here
David Joyner..on value scales in color theory remember black is the lowest
          number
Shelley Rheams..Hi Liz and Thanks David
jennifer casillas..Pretty.  Is that your final choice?
sysop.....Liz ... is Leslie with you?
jsparck...Jennifer, if you're talking to me - i will keep this
          color..
efarber...no leslie will be on soon
Shelley Rheams..I'm glad you like it. Yes it is my final answer
sysop.....Hi Kathy
Charlie Ackerman..Did everyone get becky's mail
Meghan Kelly..Yes
Shelley Rheams..Yes
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Yes, I am still jealous.
Kathleen Hamilton..hello
anthony gabriel..YES I DID
sysop.....Yes
jennifer casillas..Yes, me too.
efarber...hey shelley hows your dog?
Charlie Ackerman..rainy who likes rainy
angela tyler-wiltz..yep, got it
Shelley Rheams..He's recovered and laying next to me.
Jane F. Kahn..greetings to one and all
efarber...i like rain
jennifer casillas..When it's in Paris, rainy is great.
sysop.....Hi Leslie !
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I like rain too and in France who cares
angela tyler-wiltz..jane and e farber its hard to see your colors
Shelley Rheams..Paris would be nice just to be in Paris
Jane F. Kahn..a very happy holiday season as well, thanksgiving, chanukah,
          and xmas
Charlie Ackerman..women????!!!!!
efarber...hello leslie
Meghan Kelly..I studied mime in Paris.  I don't remember it ever
          raining.
David Joyner..I wish I was in france, or better yet Barcelona!
Leslie Bahn..HI - I'm trying to change the color of my nake.
efarber...excuse me?
jennifer casillas..Hi, Jane.  Get used to it Charlie.  You're
          outnumbered.
sysop.....OK ... I think that's everyone ... WELCOME
angela tyler-wiltz..the color of your fonts, kind of faded
Jane F. Kahn..jennifer greetings
sysop.....We will start in just a minute or so
David Joyner..I was in the worst down pore of my life in Paris, I'm talking
          deluge
Jane F. Kahn..charlie enjoying the season with family i see
sysop.....O.K.  let's take a 90 second break ...
Charlie Ackerman..quite, yes, thank you.
Leslie Bahn..Hi Liz.
David Joyner..Jane F that is very electric blue
sysop.....First is Group 1 -
Shelley Rheams..At least you got to go to Paris for the deluge, mine
          happened here a few months ago.
sysop.....Copyright History :
sysop.....Jane, Kathy, Charlene, Jennifer
sysop.....Charlene is traveling tonight and won't be able to join
          us.
sysop.....Let the group have time to answer my 1st question ... then please
          feel free to ask yours.
David Joyner..The only bad part was six dollars for a coke with ice
sysop.....Remember, try not to have too many questions at the same time. 
          Feel free to answer any question no one else has.
sysop.....If you feel an answer is incorrect or incomplete, please add your
          2 cents.
sysop.....O.K. here we go!
sysop.....What technology resulted in the first Copyright Laws?  When?  When
          were the first laws enacted in the U.S.? Why?
sysop.....Opps ... that's 4 questions ...
Jane F. Kahn..1790
sysop.....Anyway ... Group 1 ... your turn.
jennifer casillas..The printing press started it all.
Shelley Rheams..Guttenberg?
Kathleen Hamilton..1790 the first copyright act was created by George
          Washington and enacted by Congress
sysop.....Was the U.S. first with copyright laws?
Jane F. Kahn..copyright is international
Kathleen Hamilton..no  Britain in 1455
Meghan Kelly..Why did they pick the 70 years, etc. numbers.  I assume it is
          based on life expectancy by whil after that?
David Joyner..is it?
Shelley Rheams..Wow, it figures it would be in England first.
anthony gabriel..what role does the default rule play in copyri
          ghting
Kathleen Hamilton..I would assume life expectancy too.
jennifer casillas..No, it took us awhile to get on the bandwagon tojoin with
          other countries to honor copyright of international
          authors.
Charlie Ackerman..What's the difference between copyright law andpatent
          law
Jane F. Kahn..Works originally created on or after January 1978 is
          automaticcally protected
Leslie Bahn..How long does someone hold a copyright?  Forever?
Jamie Cologne..Do you think that copyright laws should be different for
          educators?Why?
David Joyner..Of course people have used identifying marks for thousands of
          years
angela tyler-wiltz..why do you think it took the u.s. over 100 years to sign
          the international copyright law?  Itit was created in
          1886?
Kathleen Hamilton..I don't know what the default role is?
jennifer casillas..Patent has to do with inventions and stuff like
          that.
Jane F. Kahn..patented law coies can not be made without consent at all with
          copyright one can use the information etc. to use in a work with
          permission
Charlie Ackerman..but isn't a written work an invetion too?
Meghan Kelly..Can you get a patent for an idea?  Or, just an
          invention
Jane F. Kahn..yes copyright law should be different for educaters
Shelley Rheams..When you hold the patent on it, it is like having the mold.
          The copyright is the right to create copies from this certain
          mold.
efarber...Why are the laws so difficult to enforce
Jane F. Kahn..can we ask questions to other people
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Why Jane?
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I mean why should copyright be different for
          educators?
jennifer casillas..I think the US had that freedom of speech thing that they
          wanted people to be able to say what they wanted, and it did
          matter if they were from another country-they didn't care so much
          about them.
Jane F. Kahn..we're asking as fast as we can and wonder who else is asking
          or answering questions
jennifer casillas..I think the copyright law should be different for
          educators if they are not using a copyrighted work for
          profit.
Meghan Kelly..I've read that early fighters for copyright law were British
          authors whose works were pirated here -- Dickens, Frances Hodgson
          Burnett, etc.
anthony gabriel..the default rule comes into play  when there is no formal 
          agreement between parties concerning copyright,  the employer
          gains copyright authority
David Joyner..reproduction or duplication require consent and
          acknowledgement
Shelley Rheams..Educators hopefully uphold a certain standard. If we don't
          want our students to copy information in a plagaristic fashion,
          then we need to set the tone with them.
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Shelly that sounds good, but we know that there will be
          some who will only buy that one workbook and copy it :)
Jane F. Kahn..copyright and fair use educators may claim fair use of their
          own productions providing the productions are for face to face
          curricuml base instruction
Charlie Ackerman..Don't we as educators use best practice and isn't that use
          of other's information?
Jane F. Kahn..demonstrations of how to create multmedia production
Leslie Bahn..Jane - please change your color; it's very difficult to see. 
          Thanks.
Jane F. Kahn..conference presentations remote instruction etc.
Meghan Kelly..Is anyone else having trouble reading Jane's color?
Charlie Ackerman..Jane that color is tough on my computer
jennifer casillas..The author should get credit, but we should be able to
          use it-like links or pictures for an unlimited time.
sysop.....Is "Fair Use" a legal right?
sysop.....Me too Jane
Shelley Rheams..Jacquelyn, Its better than having them hand in each others
          work a week after the assingment is due.
Jane F. Kahn..fair use ends when the multmedia creator loses control of his
          prouct's use such as when it is accessed by others over the
          internet
Charlie Ackerman..Yea, me Meghan
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Okay, what is the procedure to get a copyright and is
          there a fee.  I know some instructors who just place copyright by
          there name-is that official?
Jane F. Kahn..fair use is a legal right
anthony gabriel..How did the Great Depression  affect copyrighting growth
          .
efarber...Yes jane's color is very light on my screen
David Joyner..jane I tried to be subtle about the blue thing
jennifer casillas..Fair Use is so gray that I'd just like to ignore it all
          and take my chances with the law.
Charlie Ackerman..ooh, good question anthony
sysop.....I know some instructors who just place copyright by there name-is
          that official?  YES!  Anyone dissagree?
jsparck...I agree Jennifer.  From what I was reading, there are so many
          limitations - you have to watch everything you do and consider so
          many different things...
Shelley Rheams..The problem arises, when one person steals anothers work and
          places a copyright next to it, claiming it as their own. What do
          you think?
jennifer casillas..I thought there was an official way you had to set up a
          copyright.
Meghan Kelly..Yes it has legal status to place a copyright by your work. 
          You should, of course, apply for one.
efarber...Yes i think that would be official
angela tyler-wiltz..why not, if copyright law covers any created works,
          whether legally copyrighted or not. am i correct?
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I don't know-I thought there was a procedure
Charlie Ackerman..But as educators, we're just using it and not proporting
          it to be our own or selling  it because students wouldn't buy it
          anyway.
Kathleen Hamilton..There is an official way to set up a copyright.
Leslie Bahn..I thought you had to register somewhere.
anthony gabriel..i agree with you angela
sysop.....If a work doesn't claim copyright ... do this mean that there is
          NO copyright?
jennifer casillas..Someone wrote, I think it was Shelley, about how to
          register or copyright for $99.
Shelley Rheams..One of the webistes I went to had a place where you could
          register it, I am afraid to leave the area.
Charlie Ackerman..I don't think it does george
Jane F. Kahn..some copyrights may be done without fees, fair use can result
          in broader dissemination.  For multmedia projects fair use
          projects sed for non=education or commerical purposes and for
          duplication or distribution of multimedia projects beyond
          limitations require permission
Meghan Kelly..If a work doesn't claim copyright, it doesn't mean it doesn't
          have one, since the work may have been lifted illegally.
Kathleen Hamilton..Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. 
          You have to register, however, to sue somebody for
          infringement.
Meghan Kelly..Jane, please change your color.
angela tyler-wiltz..jane could you darken your font color, it is really hard
          to read-hurts the eyes
Charlie Ackerman..Jane can you please change that color
jennifer casillas..No, all works are considered copyrighted, unless you know
          better.
Jane F. Kahn..educators and students must credit sources giving full
          bibliographic information when available  educators and students
          must display the copyright notice and
Jane F. Kahn..why
Charlie Ackerman..can't read it
sysop.....Because no one can rean what you write ... Jane
efarber...it's very pretty,but it is hard to read
Jane F. Kahn..sorry
Jane F. Kahn..is that better
angela tyler-wiltz..the four criteria for fair use--what are the limitations
          on the four criteria?
efarber...we forgive you
sysop.....Is "Fair Use" ONLY for educators?
Shelley Rheams..I told you the color thing is important. It looks great now,
          Jane!
Jane F. Kahn..no
sysop.....Does "Fair Use" mean you DON'T need permission from the copyright
          owner?
Charlie Ackerman..thanks Jane
Meghan Kelly..What doe you mean by limitations angela?
Charlie Ackerman..I think it depends on what you're using it for.
efarber...I thought educators and students.  Basical non-comercial
          stuff
Jane F. Kahn..i suggest one read The Future of Idea by Lawrence Lessig  he
          contends tht the freedom associated in the creation of the
          internet has been lost due to the legal environment
jennifer casillas..I think you can only use a certain percentage to not need
          permission.
Meghan Kelly..Fair use means that you don't need permission from the
          copyright owner if your use of the work fall within fairuse
          guidelines.
Jamie Cologne..most are 10%
Leslie Bahn..Who determines what the percentage is?
jsparck...It is my understanding that as long as you acknowledge where you
          taking the information from, it is considered fair use.
efarber...Right I read that there are certain percentages that are
          o.k.
Meghan Kelly..Depends on the form of the work Jennifer.
Charlie Ackerman..What about the article on the Naval Academy don't you
          think that they take it seriously
jennifer casillas..Yes, that's scary.
angela tyler-wiltz..one of you on the discussion board mention the four
          criteria of fair use, what are the limitations within the limits 
          based upon the four?
Kathleen Hamilton..Jane, you picked my color.
sysop.....So, if I can't use Mickey Mouse in my PowerPoint without Disney's
          permission, how come Jay Leno can make fun of Mickey on
          TV?
Jane F. Kahn..the fair use exemption places a limit on the exclusive rights
          to promote free speech, learning, scholarluy research and open
          discussion.  under the act educators may use portions of
          copyrighted material if the purpose and character of the use is
          educational in nature
Jamie Cologne..1st amendment
Shelley Rheams..Personal opinion versus unauthorized use of an image
Meghan Kelly..Jay Leno's take on Mickey is not covered by  copyright
Jane F. Kahn..previously published not a substantial part of the entire work
          and if the marketability of the work is not impaired by the
          use
Jacquelyn Mahatha..If Jay used an image of Mickey he would have to get
          permission
sysop.....O.K.  let's take a 90 second break ...
Leslie Bahn..Good idea!
Meghan Kelly..I'm interested in the other side -- Jefferson's idea that
          ideas should flow freely, and big corporations stealing
          ideas.
sysop.....O.K.  let's take a 90 second break ...
Jane F. Kahn..no, jay leno, is similiar to the case with my uncle, BIGBOPPER
          killed with buddy hollie
Shelley Rheams..Are we in time out?
sysop.....O.K.  let's take a 90 second break ...
David Joyner..In the art world appropriation is a technique used by artists
          some call it stealing
sysop.....Next is Group 2 - Legislation :
sysop.....Charlie, David, Shelley, Anthony
sysop.....Let the group have time to answer my 1st question ... then please
          feel free to ask yours.
sysop.....Each group member -- Characterize the current state of CopyRight
          legislation in the United States.  How does U.S. CopyRight Law
          work outside of the U.S.?
Jane F. Kahn..the act of the bid bopper was held at a casino and down to his
          costume.  The fact that they said and gave credit on stage was not
          an infringement on copyright
Jane F. Kahn..it was considered to be in the public domain, fair use
David Joyner..what evolved was an acceptance, conceptually...as long as the
          original bad been altered significantly
Shelley Rheams..It is in flux. That is, technology has been changing so
          fast, the committes are having trouble keping up
David Joyner..(had not bad)
sysop.....What effect has electronic equipment had on CopyRight
          legislation?
Charlie Ackerman..I think that the big legislation going on in the U.S. is
          the Milenium act.  As for foreign countries they're stealing us
          blind
anthony gabriel..US copywrite law  doe not apply in some countries
David Joyner..pure information is property
Shelley Rheams..Stuff on the internet now has to have a warning paragraph
          (like videos) telling you not to copy it. It is defensive.
Charlie Ackerman..It's made it so difficult to legislate because of the
          internet
Shelley Rheams..The Internet grew worldwide before the copyright structure
          could be put in place.
anthony gabriel..because of a global market place, there are not enough
          gatekeepers
sysop.....Milenium act.  What is it?
Meghan Kelly..Copyright structure was in place; the internet just makes it
          stretch in another direction.
Charlie Ackerman..George didn't you read my discussion on web
          crossing
Jane F. Kahn..Copyright is a form of protection provided by laws in u.s
          title 17 uscodecopyright allows the owner to give others
          permission to reproduce derivative works distribut coies or
          phonorecords perform publicly display copyright publicly and
          digital audio transmissionscopyriht is available for all
          unpublished works regardless of the nationality or domicile of the
          author
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I know that  with musicThe Audio Home Recording Act of
          1992 (AHRA) exempt consumers from Lawsuits for copyright
          violations when they record music pr private or non-commerical
          use.
Jacquelyn Mahatha..pr=for
David Joyner..perhaps a water mark of sorts on the internet that prohibits
          copying
angela tyler-wiltz..I agree that we all have borrowed both intentionally and
          unintentionally from the works of others in order to create our
          own works.  What is the big issue behind copyright?  is it
          ackknowledgement of creativity  and intelligence?  is it money? 
          where do we draw the line?
Jane F. Kahn..a treaty party is a country or intergovernmental organization
          ther thatn the u.s. that is a party to an international agreement,
          in this case copyrighted
Shelley Rheams..Unfotunately, the people with the "gatekeeping" ability and
          technology are also the ones who can create viruses and do so for
          the sheer fun of seeing  how far it can go.
Jane F. Kahn..the work is first published in the us or forgein nation
          develops a
Shelley Rheams..Nice to see you  back Charlie
Jane F. Kahn..sorry george
Charlie Ackerman..sorrry, kids
David Joyner..i'm having trouble follow can we take a catchup break
Meghan Kelly..I can see the advantage of one line answers.  More take up too
          much of the screen.  Is there a way to enlarge it?
anthony gabriel..greed not the good of society drives ip issues - would you
          agree
Leslie Bahn..I'm having to up and down arrow a lot to follow what's going
          on.
angela tyler-wiltz..me too
jennifer casillas..Yes, according to what I have read, greed is what drives
          copyright law.
Jane F. Kahn..new color
Meghan Kelly..Greed and a desire to control what one has produced.
sysop........ chats move fast with 15 people ...
jsparck...Everytime I use the bar to go up and down to read, it decides to
          go all the way up to the top where we originally started and then
          I get even more confused.
efarber...I know this is difficult to follow.  While I'm typing I miss
          things
Meghan Kelly..good color, Jane
sysop.....Electronic equipment make copying stuff so easy today.
David Joyner..perhaps a sliding scale of sorts
Jane F. Kahn..hope all cn read it now, not pretty
Meghan Kelly..But, George, so much of it is just stuff.  Worth
          protecting?
sysop.....Are copyright laws keeping up or making our life harder?
Shelley Rheams..Yes, Because information is more readily available.
Jane F. Kahn..making it more difficult
Leslie Bahn..It depends if you're the author or the copier.
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I don't think copyright laws are keeping up
Jane F. Kahn..the readon being is that the system is being used by more
          individuals who do not know.
anthony gabriel..the original intent of ip was to have inventors share their
          knowlege, with the protection of a patent to protect them
          financially, how much sharing is really going on ie- aids
          research
Meghan Kelly..Most laws are mop up operations behind the mess
efarber...enforcement is not keeping up
angela tyler-wiltz..if i did a 230 page paper and half of it was informtaion
          from other sources-and i acknowledged those sources-will copyright
          be an issue?
Charlie Ackerman..I think that it's been difficult to keep up because
          technology improves so fast
Shelley Rheams..No more so then the airport screeners. It is for the good of
          all, inclusive of the intellectual community which frowns upon
          stealing info.
Jacquelyn Mahatha..True Charlie
Jamie Cologne..Some copyright laws are overboard. Who has owns the equation
          x=2+10
sysop.....Good question Angela ... what do we think?
David Joyner..when a work is first published it is fully protected. the
          percentage of copyright could reduse in incraments of time
angela tyler-wiltz..of course it wouldn't be a paper, but a book LOL
Meghan Kelly..Angela, it depends on how you gave them credit; whether you
          used large chunks of the same things, etc.
Jane F. Kahn..accordoing to lawrence, major corporations will play a huge
          part in who owns copyright
jennifer casillas..They are making our lives harder.  Soon I won't be able
          to lend someone a book because the publisher wants his
          money.
Jane F. Kahn..digital images, lines, use, etc.
Meghan Kelly..Jennifer,
Meghan Kelly..Of course you will be able to lend books.  What about
          libraries?
Jacquelyn Mahatha..If you cite your sources I don't think it is
          copyright
Shelley Rheams..As long as it is for educational purposes, not with the "for
          profit"motive, then it is OK to lend it.
anthony gabriel..what role does ip play in economic racism or doe it play a
          role.
Charlie Ackerman..Look, Pat Riley makes money of the term three-peat, I
          think that's ridiculous
Meghan Kelly..Anthong, aren't you talking about access.
Shelley Rheams..Not so much in racism, but in terms of the digital
          divide
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I agree Charlie, but he had the sense to claim that he
          was the first to say it
Leslie Bahn..But how did Pat Riley copyroght it?
anthony gabriel..yes, access is the key, burt who controls it
Charlie Ackerman..But did he?
Shelley Rheams..2 streams of conversation going on here.
David Joyner..money controls access
Jacquelyn Mahatha..of course he did not say it first- I said it to a kid in
          1975 who repeated 8th grade three times
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I am kidding, but I could have
sysop.....2peat is NOT copyright ... its trade mark
Leslie Bahn..What's the difference?
Charlie Ackerman..I don't know but if I say enough or write enough and
          copyright just because I wrote then I can sue to my hearts content
          because I wrote it first
sysop.....You can't copyright just a few works.
Shelley Rheams..Thanks for the clarification sysop
angela tyler-wiltz..what is the difference between trade mark and
          copyright?
sysop.....Trade Mark, like Kleenex
David Joyner..what is the difference between trade mark and
          copyright?
Charlie Ackerman..Oh, okay
Meghan Kelly..I think trademark is a symbol; copyright is a body of
          word
Meghan Kelly..work
Jane F. Kahn..how long does copyright protection endures
Charlie Ackerman..but we use Kleenex to mean tissue don't we
Meghan Kelly..I asked that question 30 minutes ago, Jane
David Joyner..jane luv the new color
Jane F. Kahn..sorry
Leslie Bahn..WE use Clke to mean any type of soda>
Leslie Bahn..I mean Coke.
Jane F. Kahn..so what's the answer
David Joyner..no realy
Shelley Rheams..One of life's mysteries?
efarber...yes but we aren't trying to sell tissues under that name
Charlie Ackerman..really what david
Kathleen Hamilton..For works created after 1/1/1978, life of author + 70
          years.
David Joyner..I really do like the color
anthony gabriel..copyright, trademarks, and patents are alll
Leslie Bahn..Thanks, Kathleen
efarber...I am soooooo lost
sysop.....OK ... half way ... lets take a 5 minute break  !!!
efarber...i need a drink
anthony gabriel..consided intellectual property- why do you think
angela tyler-wiltz..anthony you mean it protects the creator of the
          product
David Joyner..la puff la puff
Charlie Ackerman..You too Liz
Jacquelyn Mahatha..me too liz
anthony gabriel..intellcetual property- the term is now in fashion
efarber...cocktails at my house
Leslie Bahn..On my way!
sysop.....OK ... half way ... lets take a 5 minute break  !!!
Meghan Kelly..Does anyone have the original Moosehead cookbook?  We are
          trying to find a definitive pumpkin pie recipe.
Meghan Kelly..Sorry, Moosewood
David Joyner..I bet you could use moosehead in a pumpin pie recipe
Shelley Rheams.. t
jennifer casillas..No one would know the difference
sysop.....I could use a moosehead myself right now.
Meghan Kelly..I have a sister who lives in Alaska.  She sometimes brings
          down moose and caribou.
David Joyner..lol
efarber...meghan my sister-in -law does
Charlie Ackerman..I've got a Coor's Light
sysop.....Is caribou head also a beer?
Jane F. Kahn..charlie rub it in
Meghan Kelly..Jane, are you at UNO?
Jane F. Kahn..they don't have that here at class
Jane F. Kahn..nxt time
Jane F. Kahn..yes
Charlie Ackerman..They've got Three Stooges Beer here in PA
Jacquelyn Mahatha..what is it sysop?
Charlie Ackerman..That's George
sysop.....O.K.   90 second left ...
Jane F. Kahn..meghan where are you
Meghan Kelly..At home
Charlie Ackerman..system operator
sysop.....Next is Group 4 - Multimedia ...
Jane F. Kahn..cooking
sysop.....Meghan, Jamie, Jennifer Sparck, Becky ...
Charlie Ackerman..did we skip group 3
sysop.....Becky out of country, in France ... not sure if she will join
          us.
angela tyler-wiltz..no we are last
sysop.....No ... group 3 is last tonight!
efarber...group 3 is last.  everybody will be good and tired
Jane F. Kahn..becky is having a great time and should be excused after all
          her hard work all these years if you can
Charlie Ackerman..so then we did skip group 3
Jane F. Kahn..have another beer
sysop.....Each group member -- Is there something unique/different about the
          way copyright laws apply to multimedia?  What is
          multimedia?
Jamie Cologne..All of the limitiations where the same in multimedia. Most
          seem to be about 10%
Meghan Kelly..George, our researches pertained to fair use for educators,
          not copyright.  Multimedia is different since it applies to many
          forms of information.
Meghan Kelly..Multimedia covers written words, music, images, web pages,
          etc.
jsparck...According to the information we read, as long as you follow the
          guidelines, your use if fair use
anthony gabriel..while some artists complain about the bootlegging of their
          work, they also complain
Jane F. Kahn..meghan, why can performers use music on stage and not pay
          copyright fees, etc. is it fair use
Meghan Kelly..The Copyright Act does cover fair use, however.
anthony gabriel..about how record companies rip them off-
Meghan Kelly..Performers pay royalties.
sysop.....If I make proper use of "fair use", am I protected from copyright
          violations and lawsuits?
Jamie Cologne..yes according to the research
Jane F. Kahn..not always if it is in the public domain, it can be considered
          fair use as long as they credit the actors on stage
Meghan Kelly..Yes and no, since Fair Use is fairly murky ground.  It is a
          defensible position, however.
angela tyler-wiltz..what do you think is fair use for educators?  If my goal
          is just to disseminate information, should copyright be an issue? 
          Isn't for the good of society, to have an educated
          citizenry?
Jane F. Kahn..angela, that is the arguement of lawrnce
jsparck...I did not find any information that specifically tells you what
          you can and cannot use for it so be considered fair use
Meghan Kelly..You have to consider, Angela, future use of the materials yo
          have put together, if you have changed them significantly,
          edt.
anthony gabriel..as long as i don't make a profit can i copy an artist work,
          even if i give to only 3 friends
Meghan Kelly..JAne, who is Lawrence?
jsparck...Rule of thumb - the more information you copy or use - the less
          likely it is considered fair use
Jane F. Kahn..what is the food faith fair use defense
Shelley Rheams..In order to reproduce a play we pay royalty fees
Meghan Kelly..What is food faith?
Jane F. Kahn..lawrence is the author i quoted earlier
David Joyner..I don't think becky should be excused and you can tell her i
          said so
Shelley Rheams..So it would make sense that if it is a major recognizable
          work you need to ask permission first.
Jane F. Kahn..the future of ideas by lessig lawrence
jsparck...yes
jsparck...Shelley
Meghan Kelly..Shelly, not even a recognizable work -- any original work
          should be attributed.
Jane F. Kahn..david are you jealous
Charlie Ackerman..Do you think it must be recognizable, I think it's more
          dangerous for the ones that aren't recognizable.
Meghan Kelly..When in doubt, ask permission, make mention of the source,
          etc.
Shelley Rheams..In my reseach it says that amost all major nations follow
          the Berne copyright convention - the second one I posted.
Shelley Rheams..almost sorry
Charlie Ackerman..almost what shelley
David Joyner..artists and inventors should have ownership of their ideas, it
          bothers me when big corporations control it all
sysop.....We should be very careful what to claim under  "fair use" ,  like
          Meghan said ... when in doubt ...
Meghan Kelly..Sometimes, I'm almost sorry too.
efarber...i'm still here i'm just lost.  please send a search party
Charlie Ackerman..that's a contract david
Jane F. Kahn..efarber, i want to drink what you have
Shelley Rheams..You know what I mean "almost" not stradling the fence on the
          sorry issue Meghan
efarber...madras
Charlie Ackerman..Like what ever we use on a computer that belongs to our
          school or sum such
David Joyner..???
Leslie Bahn..What is a madras?
Meghan Kelly..David, then you believe in Jeffersonian ideas.
anthony gabriel..if  i suggested to someone to create a multimedia work and
          they did  could i claim  joint ownership of that work
efarber...cranberry orange juice lime
jsparck...I was reading that you need permission when you want to use
          material for commerical use, use materials repeatedly and use work
          in its entirety and longer than 2500 words
efarber...vodka
sysop.....If your student's projects violate copyright laws, who is
          responsible? Students? Teachers? The School? The School
          Board?
Shelley Rheams..No, but you could charge them a consultant fee or percentage
          of the royalties
Meghan Kelly..And use materials for more than 2 years in an educative
          setting.
Leslie Bahn..Probably the school
efarber...the teacher
David Joyner..no I believe the little guy always gets it
Jamie Cologne..The teachers should be
Meghan Kelly..Probably the school for not teaching fair use properly.  But,
          hard to enforce.
Shelley Rheams..My answer was to Anthony up there!
sysop.....The school ... and who is the school going to hold
          responsible?
anthony gabriel..thanks shelly
Jane F. Kahn..after reading all that i have about copyright and fair use
          etc, i really feel that i don't want to use the net for fear that
          i might copy, infringe or missue a ork or something
Meghan Kelly..Morris Bart
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I think it depends upon where the project was
          completed.If it wasn't done at school how is the school
          responsible
Leslie Bahn..Their insurance company and lawyer?
David Joyner..thats the only reason they bother to call it fair... what are
          they going to do to you
Jamie Cologne..teachers should imform students of guidelines
Jacquelyn Mahatha..The teacher might have taught fair use on a hurricane
          make-up day and the kid didn't show up
jennifer casillas..The law would say that we-teachers, schools, school
          board, etc are resposible probably because we provided them with
          the information. material.
Meghan Kelly..The Board usually has a form which parents have to
          sign.
Meghan Kelly..Anyway, most of this stuff is honored in the breech.
Charlie Ackerman..I think it should be personal responsibility and lesson
          plans
Jamie Cologne..our library covers the policy with all students
Meghan Kelly..Yeah for libraries!
Jane F. Kahn..i think in some of my reading i read where you could make one
          or two copies without penalty of copyright and the uses were all
          outlined
Charlie Ackerman..if it's in lesson plans you can back up your claims of
          having taught it
angela tyler-wiltz..the students i think--we have signal lights that are
          present for a reason--just because i don't tell my students what
          it is for doesn't mean that they can run it--students know when
          they have done something immoral
Meghan Kelly..You may make copies for use if the originals fail,
          etc.
Jamie Cologne..it was two including the orginal, jane
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Ours too Jamie-all students must go through the librarian
          for training on use of the internet
David Joyner..it should be taught in practice not just on the hurricane
          day
Leslie Bahn..If you do a Powerpoint presentation with the kids and used an
          excerpt form a song, do you have to ask permission?
Jane F. Kahn..good questions
Meghan Kelly..I spend 6-8 weeks on library skills with 3, 4, 5
          grades
Jacquelyn Mahatha..It was a joke David-suppose the teacher teaches it, but
          the student does what he wants to anyway?
Kathleen Hamilton..I read for schools copyright infringement  - damages
          would be statutory with fines ranging from $250 to
          $10,000.
angela tyler-wiltz..good point jackie, that is usually the case
Meghan Kelly..For fair use, you may use up to 30 seconds of a song.  Your
          work must fall within fair use guidelines.
Jamie Cologne..how should teachers discpline students if they break the
          policy
Meghan Kelly..sorry 3 seconds
jsparck...outrageous!  You try and teach and hope that your students will
          follow and somehow - as a teacher, you are blamed..
Leslie Bahn..Take away internet priviledges.
Charlie Ackerman..path of least resistance for the student, you're right
          Jackie
David Joyner..take them out back and shoot  them
Shelley Rheams..My point #0023 8 on thr posting says that Recently US
          commercial copyrighting made it a vioation to copy more than 10
          copies and over $25.00 its a felony.
Jane F. Kahn..the safest course is to alwaus get permission from the owner
          before using the materials
efarber...i think its 30
jsparck...Actually, in Jefferson Parish, each child and parent must sign a
          permission to use internet form
Jamie Cologne..most of my students cut and paste from the intrenet
efarber...shelley why do you have 8 points
David Joyner..all of mine do
Meghan Kelly..there are some sites which deal with plagarism.
David Joyner..to some degree
Meghan Kelly..How to detect it, etc.
Shelley Rheams..It was on my second posting on Sunday concerning fair use
          and copyrights. Liz
efarber...oh
sysop.....O.K.  let's take a 90 second break ...
sysop.....Next and last is Group 3 - Music & Copyrights Angela, Jackie,
          Liz, and Leslie
Shelley Rheams..Usually you can detect it by the inordinate use of better
          grammar/ content. IE a student who cannot write a sentence in
          front of you all of a sudden becomes Shakespeare.
David Joyner..read it live it know it
sysop.....I think its just a continuation of what we were just tolking
          about.
sysop.....tolking?
Jane F. Kahn..the fair use provision of copyright act allows for scholarship
          or research eaching etc.  to further educationa and library
          activities essential to the free
Jane F. Kahn..flow of information
sysop.....Each group member -- From your research for this project, What
          effect is music having on copyrights ... and copyright laws in the
          U.S.?
Leslie Bahn..Musicinas are trying to make the copyright laws tighter, so
          that they can make more money.
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Well, there is a lot going on right now with the use of
          the internet and music, because of course the exchange of music by
          consumers leaves the artist and writers out in the cold
Meghan Kelly..I want to know aboutKazaa borrowing memory.  What does that
          mean.
Jamie Cologne..what did you find out about napster
anthony gabriel..isley bros versus micheal bolton/ chic versus  the
          sugarhill gang/ what do these cases have in common
Shelley Rheams..It means when you install Kazaa it creates certain DLL
          files
angela tyler-wiltz..Musicians face the same issues any other artists does,
          they want to be able to have a say so about how what they create
          will be used -- and to what extent.  Everything that was said so
          far is relevant to music.
Jacquelyn Mahatha..all of their music was used without prior permission from
          the orginal author-sampled
Leslie Bahn..They are all cases where one muscisan says another has stolen a
          portion of his work.
Meghan Kelly..What are DLL files?
Shelley Rheams..Sorry I pressed enter too soon. The Dll files is an
          executable program that is called by another executable program.
          It does not run on its own.
efarber...I'm back my children came home
Leslie Bahn..What I thought was interesting is that there are court cases
          where the parent is being sued because the child "stole" music off
          the internet.
angela tyler-wiltz..What do you guys think of this scenario?  I am an
          aerobics instructor and I hold my classes at a local hotel-- i use
          whitney houston's party mix in my class, should i get permission
          to use the music?
Jacquelyn Mahatha..This is what schools are going to have to monitor closely
          also
Shelley Rheams..Someone on Kazaa's home end takes your IP address and uses
          your CPu over the Internet (just like a network server would be
          used)You don't know it though
Jacquelyn Mahatha..kids are accesing the web at school and actually
          downloading musci
jennifer casillas..No surprise about the lawsuits.
Jane F. Kahn..can they be held liable
efarber...There has also be litigation base on the responsibilit of the
          backbone servers
Leslie Bahn..I have a friend who teaches Jazzercise.  The Jazzercise
          corporation is now making the instructors purchase all CDs and put
          them in a CD changer.
David Joyner..The big one is game sharing
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Yes, David-I think that is true
Shelley Rheams..Well, if you can catch them doing it. It happens so fast. If
          you borrow 1 dollar out of everyones band account and then return
          it , then borrow off a dollar from someone else. Who will
          notice?
Shelley Rheams..Sorry "bank"
efarber...people have been sharing these things since the invention of the
          tape recorder.  It not new it justits just a new format
efarber...i can't type
Charlie Ackerman..Isn't the internet for sharing?
Leslie Bahn..Actually, Mozart had another composer "steal" some of his
          music.
Shelley Rheams..Accessing information in a non-linear format
Jacquelyn Mahatha..right, Liz, when folks use to use the dual cassette copy
          on a stero to make copies for their friends
Jane F. Kahn..infringement
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Yes, Charlie, but not stealing
Meghan Kelly..I like that word, infringement.
angela tyler-wiltz..what is the difference between downloading musci from
          the internet and give a copy of mariah's new album to everyone in
          the class?
Jane F. Kahn..thankyou
jennifer casillas..I thought so, but there will be future lawsuits for
          linking documents outside of yours since you bypass all
          advertising.
Shelley Rheams..OK if you think about it this way, Bill Gates stole the
          concept of the GUI from the Steves at Apple-Macintosh. He is the
          big daddy of the computer world - greed wise.
Charlie Ackerman..It's out there to use otherwise don't put it out
          there
anthony gabriel..ascap has played a major role in the music industry, even 
          thinking about suing the girl scouts for singing songs like row
          row your boat
Jacquelyn Mahatha..hopefully if you give a copy of the album you purchased
          it as oppose to you just downloading it from the net.
Meghan Kelly..What's the balance between sharing and stealing?
Leslie Bahn..A conscience.
Jane F. Kahn..the four fair use factors
Jane F. Kahn..what is the character of the use
efarber...everyone did it you can buy equipment to copy tape, copy videos,
          and burn ccs at just about any large store. If they don't want it
          copied why make it so easy
Shelley Rheams..Share is optional from the point of work origination. Steal
          leaves no option
Jane F. Kahn..wht is the nature of the work to be used
Charlie Ackerman..Good point shelley, it's all about stealing when it comes
          to computing and we call it public access
Jane F. Kahn..how much of the work will be used
angela tyler-wiltz..what is the difference, she lost $18 x 14?
Meghan Kelly..Fair use factors are for educators.  How about our kids
          downloading?
Jane F. Kahn..what effect would this use have on the market for the original
          or for permissions if the use were widespraead
David Joyner..Barry Manalow better look out I do a mean copa cabana
Meghan Kelly..There are templates for asking permission for your works as
          educators.  Just to make it easy for you.
Leslie Bahn..I'm glad you're back, David.  You inject a sense of
          humor!
Shelley Rheams..Or infect
efarber...the effect will probably be what it has always been.  People are
          now more opened about doing it
David Joyner..Hey I resemble that
Leslie Bahn..I know.
efarber...excuse me a minute, I'll be right back
Charlie Ackerman..you do
Charlie Ackerman..or...you do?
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I think most record companies and artist are against it
          when their music is put on the internet without prior
          authorization.  There are tons of sites where you can access
          music.
David Joyner..You know what i heard about efarber
anthony gabriel..what have we all learned that we can store in our long term
          memory
Shelley Rheams.."too much with us" our value system has decayed and the
          microcosm (Interent) is meerley beginning to resemble the
          macrocosm of future reality
Jane F. Kahn..here here
anthony gabriel..good job
Charlie Ackerman..ooh, shelley that's deep...I like it
Shelley Rheams..Thanks
Jacquelyn Mahatha..I know Shelley, Dang that's kinda depressing
Meghan Kelly..It was also said in the 2 century by one of the
          apostles.
sysop.....Ok Ok Ok
efarber...i'm back  and david stop talking about me
sysop.....times up ...
Charlie Ackerman..how or when do we catch u[p
Meghan Kelly..Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Jane F. Kahn..the greeks tried to get credit for their works and
          thoughts
David Joyner..If a chicken and a half can lay an egg and a half in a day and
          a half
sysop.....Like Anthony asked ... did we learn anything?
Leslie Bahn..Have a great holiday!
Jane F. Kahn..by all means
efarber...have a safe and happy holiday
sysop.....Did you complete your attendance eMail?
Leslie Bahn..Yes, we learned not to have 15 people in a chat room.
Jane F. Kahn..yes but not the journal
sysop.....Remember to Journal!
Kathleen Hamilton..Good discussion!!!
efarber...and don't use the color aqua
Shelley Rheams..Thanks for the reminder.
Jane F. Kahn..happy holidays
Charlie Ackerman..yes, happy turkey day
sysop.....I hope to post a "transcript" of our Chat, linked to our Syllabus
          tonight.
Jacquelyn Mahatha..Thank you all for being so nice to my daughter last
          week-she told all her friends that she goes to college.  Happy
          Thanksgiving
jennifer casillas..Have a great holiday.
sysop.....ed.uno.edu ... and explain how you felt about our chat tonignt.
          Fun? Learn anything? What we did right? What we did wrong?
anthony gabriel..i really learned that there's alot i didn't know about
          intellectual property
David Joyner..cluck cluck
sysop.....Happy Thanksgiving
sysop.....Thanks for everything !!!
anthony gabriel..happy thanksgiving
efarber...liz is out of here
angela tyler-wiltz..Yep, I learned that you all are CRAZY-- and that to keep
          yourself out of trouble give credit where credit is due and get
          permission if in doubt-- be save and have a Happy
          Thanksgiving
David Joyner..all the best see ya
sysop.....Good observaton Angela ... Thanks for your work
angela tyler-wiltz..take care
sysop.....Shelley ... she's not here
sysop.....take care
Shelley Rheams..Good evening
sysop.....Shelley is here!
sysop.....Thanks for your thoughts tonight!
Shelley Rheams..You welcome!
sysop.....Just you and I now